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Call Me a Heretic
January 25, 2008 |
Posted by joanied · Filed Under Christian Philosophy, Church History
There’s a fellow over on the Parchment and Pen blog that often talks about people being heretics and today he was talking about Origen being considered a heretic. I started looking around the internet about hereticism and came across a lot of interesting things about Christian Universal Reconcilation (UR) — God will save and has saved all of mankind through Jesus Christ and all of creation will be in God — and I find much of that which resonates true to me. I realize that people will ALWAYS find Bible passages that seem to refute the things the Universal Reconciliation “teaches,” but UR also is backed up by so much of what Jesus and the apostles and even what the Old Testament prophets said. I have only begun reading lots of this and I know many of you folks will already know about all of this and perhaps have dismissed it for various reasons, but I definitely find it more persuasive than Calvinism and I THINK maybe more persuasive than Arminianism.
I think people could remain with their denominations and still be a UR person. If someone liked the liturgy of the Roman Catholic church or the Anglican church…no reason to leave. They may not agree with all the people within their church, but personally, I don’t think they have to. If others like the energy of the Pentecostal church, stay there. But whatever you do, let people know that Jesus died for ALL THE WORLD and that he draws us all to him. And if you see that people “reject” Jesus, then know that God is STILL God even after a person dies and God can still do the work he wants to do and if that work is drawing those people to himself, that is what he will do. Did your loved one die by his or own hand? God still loves them and can receive them. Did your loved one die filled with what seems like hatred? God loves them too. And yes, I do believe there will be some kind of suffering for the things we did that were opposed to God’s will. But will God punish us eternally? God said if we forgave people for things, they were forgiven. Are we going to tell God that we are more loving, more forgiving than He is? Don’t tell that to Jesus. He forgave the people who nailed him to the cross. How much more forgiving can God be?
Anyway, here are a few interesting reads:
http://www.christianheretic.com/articles/article35.html
QUOTE: “Christian Universalism”, in its simple and proper sense, has existed in almost all ages of the Church. It was very prevalent and virtually unchallenged among early Christians until the time known as the “dark ages,” which started in the fifth century. From A.D. 170 to 430, there were six Christian schools. Of these schools, four taught the salvation of all (Christian Universalism), one taught annihilation, and one taught eternal torment. During the dark ages, “Christian Universalism” still existed, but largely underground until the sixteenth century Protestant reformation.
QUOTE: Among the early followers of Christ, in the writings that still exist, we find it being proclaimed. Clemens of Alexandria, President of the Catechetical, or theological School, at Alexandria, Egypt, proclaimed it. After him it was proclaimed by one of his pupils, Origen, the most renowned scholar and theologian between the days of the Apostles and the Reformation
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/ur.htm
universal reconcilation
http://www.christianheretic.com/articles/article28.html
Why Live a Good Life If All Will Be Saved?
http://www.christianheretic.com/articles/article22.html
Absolute Assurance in Jesus Christ; Four Views of the Salvation of Our God by Charles Slagle
Joanie D.
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I have to disagree Joanie, its just wishful thimking to avoid the stumbling block of the gospel. They can say things like “It was very prevalent and virtually unchallenged among early Christians until the time known as the “dark ages,” but there is no such evidence.
If all are saved regardless, why did the apostles struggle and die to proclaim the need for belief in Christ “to spread the Good News” and rescue people.
I am not talking about proof-texting but following the entire NT narrative from Matthew to Revelation, there is just no support for that way of thinking.
If you are correct then it is a shame that Steven had to die by stoning while trying to save those who were already saved.
Steven died because people could not or would not believe that such a thing happened when Jesus was killed and then was resurrected. The people were so “entrenched” in how they thought God was that they could not believe he would walk among them in human form. Because of Jesus, the Holy Spirit was now free to teach and lead mankind in the ways of God and Steven tried to make people understand that. He tried to make people understand that God loved them just as they were. It’s not that people become “good” and then God chooses to love them. God loves them and then they can act out of that love in “good” ways. But people are threatened when someone is bringing a strange message to them. It’s possible that after Steven was stoned people who saw that could have become believers themselves. So Steven’s death would not have been a shame. He would have helped people to understand that God’s grace and love is here and now for people and will continue even after the death of the body. If they reject that notion, then surely they will be living on earth without the grace of God within them and they will not have the joy that Jesus says he was bringing to his followers. But, if, at death, God directly communicates his love to the dying, are we going to tell God he cannot do that? Not me.
And I won’t do proof-texting either, but I think that following the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation supports the thesis that God has been loving his creation all along and will love his creation all along and all of creation will be in God. The error we make is in thinking that evil is stronger than God. It’s not. Jesus showed us that.
Joanie D.
“But, if, at death, God directly communicates his love to the dying, are we going to tell God he cannot do that? Not me.”
I would never presume to tell God what he can do, but if he tells us in His Word that those who don’t believe in this life will not be saved afterward and that this is our only chance….are we going to tell him he can’t do it that way?
What part of “Depart from me, I never knew you” fits into UR theology?
D.
Chad and Dan…I don’t know the answers to these questions, having only just started looking into this idea of UR. I have trouble myself with passages from Revelation such as: 21-8 “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” and
22:14-15 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.”
But then I also read in Revelation 5:13 “Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
And from 7:9-10 “After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
So if not EVERYONE will be saved, it surely sounds like there will be VERY MANY who will be saved.
But I DO think that we don’t emphasize enough that Jesus died for ALL of us, that God loves ALL of us, no matter what we have done. He hates sin and he hates Satan who has deceived mankind so horribly. But human beings, being made in his image, he loves and he will search for and welcome each and every one of us who is lost. Jesus told many parables that explained this.
Joanie D.
Sorry but I have to support Chad and Dan on this one. I also think that Jesus’ love as portrayed in the gospels have to be considered in context of His purpose relative to God’s redemptive plan for mankind. When he stepped on the scene, the law superceded love so His emphasis on love and forgiveness provided definition for the new covenant. But as mentioned above there a significant number of passages that we will have to ignore in order to embrace universalism. Just my 2 cents.
I believe that at one point every knee will bow and everyone will realize that He is LORD. But we are judged based on our decisions and actions here and now. Some future realization after our life is over isn’t going to mean a whole lot. Even the demons confess that He is Lord. Doesn’t mean that they are saved.
D.
I wanted to mention that when I was reading about Origin on the internet, I read that he also had female students. That warmed my heart! I also read that females sometimes assisted in copying the scriptures. There were not any details about that, though. I wonder HOW it came to be that they were involved in the copying. Was it something they were “forced” to do? Were they in something like a nunnery when they did it? Did they have to “apply” to be one of the copiers? Someone who has studied the role of females in the beginnings of Christianity may know the answer to these questions.
Joanie D.
http://www.amazon.com/phrase/female-scribes
Oh, I think I can get some of my questions about female scribes at the above URL. If you click on the part of the pages that say “See all pages with references to “female scribes” then it will give a brief note about what is on the various pages in a book. If you then click on that brief note, it takes you to the page of the book. Just looking at the pages in the first book listed there, I can get some information.
Joanie D.
This will be the last I will post about Universal Reconciliation because it isn’t my intention to “convert” any of you here, but I do think there are things that are leaning me more and more toward looking deeper into this thought. And as you will see from the URLs I will post below, Martin Luther believed that people still had a chance after death to “acquire faith” and then we have some info about Gregory of Nyssa in the 4th century and you will see what a Roman Catholic archbishop has to say and what the Catholic Church teaches about it:
From http://www.biblicaluniversalist.com/index.htmlMartin Luther, the father of the Protestant Reformation, once wrote:
“God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life! In the depths of the divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future state.”—LUTHER, Letter to Hansen von Rechenberg, 1522.
That whole webpage above is interesting.
http://www.duc.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html
LOTS of things to read there about universal reconcilation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation
“In 2005 Cardinal Murphy O’Connor, Roman Catholic Archbishop of Westminster, reiterated that Universal Salvation was entirely compatible with Catholic teaching and expressed his personal hope for universal salvation.”
“St. Gregory of Nyssa in the 4th century, and St. Isaac the Syrian in the 7th century, expressed universalist positions in early Christianity. Though Gregory of Nyssa was a known universalist, he was never condemned. He was additionally declared “the father of fathers” by the seventh ecumenical council.”
“As the Catholic Church teaches that Christians must believe in the existence of hell, it has been the standard belief of Catholics that certain people go to hell. However, Catholics are not required to believe that anyone will actually be condemned to hell, a point which Cardinal Murphy O’Connor has reiterated in recent years: It is non-standard, but not heretical, for Catholics to believe that all souls ultimately reach heaven (if necessary after purgatory). From this viewpoint, the suffering described in Biblical passages of those condemned for their sins is interpreted as purgatory.”
http://www.romancatholicism.org/cormac-apokatastasis.htm
Cardinal Cormac Murphy O’Connor Speaks of His Hope for Universal Salvation.
http://www.christian-universalism.com/articles/Kirk1.html
“For it was the good pleasure of the Father that in Him should all the fulness dwell; and through him to reconcile all things unto Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens” (Col.1:19,20).
NIV says, :”For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.:
Reconciliation means the removal of all alienation and enmity, thus making peace.
Joanie D.
Interesting Joanie - I didnt know that Luther and Gregory had those views.
I still dont know that I’m persuaded by those facts, but it is still interesting nonetheless.
-steve
I disagree with UR but……. I hope it is true. I say that as a good reformed, evangelical; I truly hope in the end the UR is true.
How awesome it would be to see Hitler side-by-side with the millions of Jews he tried to exterminate.
Or Caiphas in the Kingdom with Jesus.
Or Bin Laden with the victims of 9/11.
The list is endless.
Fortunately/unfortunately I don’t have an open door in my soteriology for it. As much as I wish that the Resurrection could include all of this, I just can’t make room for it.
God is all loving and he is all just. The universe cries out loud for justice to be done and for the unrepentent heart there simply is no hope.
Hey Joanie,
Great post! As a budding universalist myself, I really appreciate your thoughts and the links you posted. I was really convinced by Bishop Kallistos Ware’s essay, “Dare we hope for the Salvation of All?” You can read parts of it online, but the whole thing is in one of his books.
bcwb,
I have to say the statement “As much as I wish that the Resurrection could include all of this, I just can’t make room for it” so underestimates the power of God’s love that it would be laughable if it weren’t so sad. YOU wish that the resurrection could include all this but the God who IS love just can’t come through for you? PLEASE! We’re talking about the God who conquered hell, here!
If you don’t want to dogmatize about final things that’s fine, but to underestimate grace and say that God CAN’T accomplish the salvation of all is just a huge no-no, in my opinion. We can at least HOPE for the salvation of all!
Thanks, Rachel. I just did an internet search trying to find parts of the essay you mention by Bishop Ware, but though folks spoke about it, I couldn’t find the essay. I found the book that it is in though if I want to buy it. Do you have a link for me so that I could read part of this essay? Thanks.
And I agree: “We can at least HOPE for the salvation of all!” We can still agree that there is a Hell since Jesus seemed to make it clear that there was a hell. But will people be tormented there forever and ever? Or will they be purified at some point and then brought into God’s love as well? I want to believe the latter as I don’t want anyone to be tormented for eternity even if they were very evil on earth. Perhaps I would feel differently if I had a child that had been murdered or raped or something. I don’t know. And I know folks say that if all of us will be with God in the end that it takes away people’s will. I don’t know that that is true. In the end, the people could still choose willingly to be with God as they finally were cleared enough of their sin to be able to see God in all his glory. Perhaps they lived their entire lives without someone showing them that God was a loving God. If so, did they ever really hear the Gospel? I think not. So if they didn’t hear the Gospel, should they then suffer eternally?
I am still not convinced on Chrisian Reconcilation though. I think it’s possible that people that reject God’s love will be destroyed but not tormented forever. But I am still open to listening, reading, studying.
Thanks, Rachel.
Joanie D.