15 Comments so far

1. Dennis Bryan on September 20, 2007 6:36 pm

   I watched one and a half of these videos and am quite disturb that I watched that long. I hope in my heart that this is not your view of the penecostal/charismatic church. If so please come to my church.

   I attend a Penecostal/Charismatic church and even though I don’t speak in tongues and don’t believe in the things that are illustrated in the videos by Benny Hinn, I also don’t deny the power of my Lord to do those things.

   I believe in a Lord that can and still do and does do miracles, if you deny that, then maybe I’m enrolled in the wrong class.

   My church still believes in healing and the laying on of hands by the elders of the church, but I also believe that it is God’s timing.

   Please Michael clarify your posting of these videos.

2. Dennis Bryan on September 20, 2007 6:40 pm

   Sorry Michael I thought that it was your post.

   Please forgive me.

   I am very sensitive to the dumbing down of the charismatic church, basing all beliefs of the TBN crowd without ever attending a God loving Penecostal church. we are not all Bennies.

   We love the Lord and aren’t stupid!!!

   Db

3. Dennis Bryan on September 20, 2007 6:48 pm

   Posted by Samson · Filed Under Christian Traditions, Problems in the Church, People, Folk Theology, Christian Life, Personal, Funny, Rants

   All these discriptions I take as offensive, Samson please tell me how many charismatic/penecostal churchs you have attended?

4. Samson on September 20, 2007 9:32 pm

   Sorry I offended you. I’ve only been to about 7 Pentacostal churches. Most of which I performed at with the Praise and Worship team I was with. I had learned the art of trance worship and how to play to create an environment that would cause these “type” of results.

   The point of my story is the fact that the church I was in couldn’t tell the difference between “Holy Ghost filled” and insane. I’m not the only one to notice things such as this. In the 1989 movie “Dream Team” Peter Boyle’s character wandered into a charismatic church with similar results.

   As far as the descriptions go, I stand by them. Allow me to spell them out.

   Christian Traditions - this type of behavior may not be a tradition in all pentacostal churches. but it is in enough to be considered a tradition.

   Problems in the Church - You as well as I think this is a problem. Your 2nd comment says it all.

   People - that’s who the blog is about.

   Folk Theology - maybe I streached here but I didn’t see a Tabloid Theology section. Slain in the Spirit is unbiblical.

   Christian Life - This type of behavior still goes on in the Church.

   Personal - I witnessed it.

   Funny - I thought that the fact no one could tell the woman was insane was a little funny. BTW she was wearing PJ’s and no shoes.

   Rants - This is my rant.

   I never said anyone was stupid. Nor did I say anything about healings. It was stirictly about the “movement” of the Spirit that is promoted by those in the Charismatic Pentacostal churches.

   Every tradition has it’s black eye. I was raised Episcopalian. I bet you could find an unbiblical practice with them.

   Peace be with you,

   Samson Covatch

5. Lisa R on September 20, 2007 10:32 pm

   Dennis,

   Well I have spent many years in pentacostal/charasmatic churches, some of which these activities HAVE occurred, and I have suscribed to the so called divine healings and slaying in the spirit, AND I will even confess to falling once or twice. So I can attest to the craziness that Sam here is referring to.

   All the time I believed that THIS was the way God moved. After all, didn’t He move that way in Acts? Didn’t Jesus say that whatever greater works He did, wow, we would do more (of course, I realized later that this was not what he was referring to)? Weren’t the signs and wonders to be a part of our repertroire?

   Then, I embarked on a wholistic study of scripture and actually came to realize that the sign gifts as outlined in the bible are not necessarily pertinent for today, that occurances as outlined in Acts must be reconciled to the rest of scripture. Yes, God can move anyway He wants and to be sure, there have been reportings of supernatural occurances that happen in the more remote parts of the world. Just as in the times of Acts. This was needed then for a new movement and this is probably still needed now in areas that don’t have access to the plethora of biblical resources as we have here, which IS how God moves now as He has revealed Himself in scripture.

   I can only pray that my pentacostal brothers and sisters can remove emotions from equation of understanding who God is and rely on how He has revealed Himself, as in scripture. I do realize that there are many charasmatic folks who do study diligently, who love the Lord with all of their heart and all of their soul and all of their mind. But we can’t neglect to notice the fringe, that rely on goosebumps rather than seeking to understanding scholasticly and experientially who God is and who we are in Him.

   Sam, dude, that was classic. Thanks for the laugh.

6. Lisa R on September 20, 2007 10:40 pm

   Oh another thing, I have experienced that a good and careful study and application of scripture, DOES give goosebumps. And we have to remember the fruit of the Spirit, one of which is self-control.

7. Dennis Bryan on September 21, 2007 4:50 am

   My apologies for being offended I should not have been.

   I appreciate your patience with me on this issue. I love my church and my Pastor and all the people in my church. I guess I am sensitive to this subject because of the blanket conclusions people come to because of T.V. evangelist and name it claim it preachers they see on TBN.

   As I said, there are people even in my church that have some of what I think are outrages claims, that I don’t understand, but I don’t discount if someone says they have experienced a supernatural healing that I can’t explain.

   I will never apologize for being emotional about the love I have for my Lord, as I would not apologize for the love and emotion I have for my wife. Being emotional does not mean I check my brain at the front door of the sanctuary.

   Once again please forgive me for sounding upset, but don’t make the mistake of categorizing all by what may be a few.

   Love our Lord

   Dennis

8. Nick N. on September 25, 2007 6:12 pm

   Samson,

   What I find interesting is your statement that nobody could tell that this woman was ‘crazy’ even after admitting that it only took about 5 minutes to realize that something was wrong and remove her from the stage. This doesn’t seem very consistent.

   So was your problem that they should have noticed her insanity immediately? Was 5 minutes just too long to give her the benefit of the doubt and let her speak? I’m a little unclear here.

   I personally don’t take offense to this caricature of Charismatic-Pentecostalism because I realize that there are some who engage in this type of behavior and many of us Charismatic-Pentecostals who don’t act ‘crazy’ certainly don’t condone it…

   But I would also point out that certain things such as radical praise and worship shouldn’t be judged according to what we feel should be done. If somebody falls to the floor because they have experienced the power of God then so be it. If someone spins in circles with their hands in the air then let them. It’s not up to us to legislate how someone praises God. As long as it is done at the appropriate time and doesn’t disrupt the service then all is well.

   But I would just point out that I believe the man whom you had singing in the background was clearly mentally handicapped. When CMP originally posted that video I noticed that immediately, and I don’t think it’s funny to have a laugh at his expense. I don’t believe for a second that his rendition of the song turned out the way it did because he was a Charismatic-Pentecostal.

   Lisa R.,

   I agree that emotion shouldn’t trump careful study, but c’mon — salvation is an emotional thing!

   B”H

9. Samson on September 26, 2007 4:07 pm

   hey Nick,

   The event happened about 6 or 7 years ago. I remembered it as best I could. Let’s just say that an unusually long period of time pasted that told us all this is not right. There was no “but God” in her series of ramblings.

   As I noted earlier she was wearing PJ’s and no shoes. It’s not like I caught on either. This is a reflection of what happened. Looking back my vision is 20/20 and in any other context her odd behavior would have been noticed as mentally unbalanced. But, in the context of “Charismatic” it appeared as normal for a time.

   you said…
   “But I would also point out that certain things such as radical praise and worship shouldn’t be judged according to what we feel should be done. If somebody falls to the floor because they have experienced the power of God then so be it. If someone spins in circles with their hands in the air then let them. It’s not up to us to legislate how someone praises God. As long as it is done at the appropriate time and doesn’t disrupt the service then all is well.”

   So let me ask you this, when is spinning around and falling down time? Should we just let someone fall down and when asked to get up because they happened to have fallen on somebody that later died because they said “I can’t get up! It’s the Spirit!” Then that’s ok?
   Or what if the “spirit” is leading me to punch you. Is that ok? (Smith Wigglesworth would say yes) What if I felt like praising God naked! You wouldn’t want to tell me “NO” because that would be, how did you say it?, “…not up to us to legislate how someone praises God.”

   Hopefully in Love you would stop me and ask on what Biblicial basis do I think this is 1) How God moves and 2) not chaotic.

   Falling down is not of God. Show me where he overpowers believers and not empowers them. We worship a God of order, not chaos.

   By the way, this is not a “caricature” of Charismatic/Pentacostals. It’s the reality of a branch of it. If we don’t speak against unbiblical practices then we continue to sin in what we leave undone.

   In my next blog I’ll tell you why I left this church and hope that it will give all christians an idea of what happens when you stand against unfounded tradition.

   Do you have the guts to stand up and say “this is not of God.”? You may be saying “yes” now, but what will you do in the face of it?

   Samson

   P.S. I agree with you that the man in the video has problems. We should not laugh about it. That is what reminded me of my story.

10. Lisa R on September 26, 2007 10:07 pm

    Samson, you’re right. While I thought your portrayal of Benny Hinn was funny, the many MANY folks that fall victim to this type of inducement is a grave matter. But you have to admit, you did set the tone with the music.

    Nick, yes I will wholeheartedly agree with you that salvation is an emotional thing(see my second comment re goosebumps). In fact, I recall recently when I did a word study on propriation, that it had me in tears.

    My point is the foundation which evoked the emotions was derived from 1)biblical sources and 2)biblical application and not from “it’s spiritual cause I feel it”.

    I do not speak of these things as someone who will look at these types of videos and say “these people are crazy”. But I speak from the vantage point of someone who has been there, done that, got the T-shirt. In fact, I was the keyboard player in my worship team at my former church and was responsible for charging the worship. Man, the livier the more spiritual better. And the music served as a force because that’s how God moved (or so I believed).

    After stepping back and giving these things the careful, wholistic examination it deserved, I had to question whether out of control behavior is of God. Needless to say, I am no longer a part of that worship team or church since unfortunately, the praise and worship beliefs were symptomatic of broader interpretation and application errors.

11. Dennis Bryan on September 27, 2007 4:59 am

    Samson, I fully understand your concerns, I share the same concerns. But I also believe it is just as dangerous to blanket or corral all Pentecostals/Charismatics in the same camp. I have serious problems with the actions of some in the Pentecostal movement and feel they have done much damage, we do have people in our church that I believe fall into this trap. But believe me when I say too you it is all done with order and if not our Pastor is quick to rebuke them. Keep in mind I believe these people love the Lord with all their heart and am quite sure they will go to heaven. And to answer your question of Nick, yes I have, and heard my Pastor confront people and say “That is not of the Lord” when they are doing things that is out of order or disruptive to the services.

    I know there are concerns and much debate about all these things and I understand and my stage of truth is constantly being examined. I love my church; we minister to the lost, visit the widows, feed the hungry and love our neighbors without compromising the word of God.

    I have visited many churches in my area and could or have found faults with all churches and denominations, I have learned to keep the main things the main things and focus on the essentials. We all will attend the perfect church when we get to heaven and while we are here on this earth we must love our brothers and sisters in Christ, and judge not lest you be judged.

    This is the reason that I am enrolled in the Theology program and love Michael’s irenic approach, I know I have been blessed by his teaching and will continue to be blessed as I move through the program.

    Db

    Samson I sent you a message on Pal Talk did not know how else to get a private message to you

12. Lisa R on September 27, 2007 5:15 am

    Also, I will agree that we can have a physical response to the great love that God has for us. The bible does speak of lifting our hands and bowing. And David danced before the Lord. But there’s a point in the expression of worship where control can be lost and it becomes something else.

13. Dennis Bryan on September 27, 2007 5:24 am

    Lisa,

    You forgot too mention David danced naked. :):):)

14. Nick N. on September 27, 2007 10:10 pm

    Samson,

    You asked:

    when is spinning around and falling down time?

    That would be during the service’s time of praise and worship (not during the announcements, sermon, benediction, etc.). It’s not up to me to tell another how to move when they praise God. What makes hand clapping ok but spinning not ok?

    You also asked:

    Should we just let someone fall down and when asked to get up because they happened to have fallen on somebody that later died because they said “I can’t get up! It’s the Spirit!” Then that’s ok?

    My main problem with hypotheticals are that they are fake — something like this would probably never happen. I’m quite sure in your years of attending Charismatic churches you noticed that there were usually people (ushers?) present to catch those who might fall. But IF someone were to fall on another person then of course they would be moved so that everyone was safe.

    You also asked:

    Or what if the “spirit” is leading me to punch you. Is that ok? (Smith Wigglesworth would say yes)

    Aisde from a clearly false analogy — my comment was about dancing by spinning around in circles and falling down on the ground — not causing others harm under the guise of ‘the Spirit told me so’. To answer your question, NO, it would not be ok for obvious reasons. So tell me, who is physically harmed by a person spinning in dance? (By the way, I though Wigglesworth kicked someone in the face, I didn’t know he punched them.)

    You asked:

    What if I felt like praising God naked! You wouldn’t want to tell me “NO” because that would be, how did you say it?, “…not up to us to legislate how someone praises God.”

    Again, false analogy. If you felt like praising God naked I would suggest doing it in the privacy of your own home. But remember that I qualified my comment by saying as long as it is done at the appropriate time and doesn’t disrupt the service — nudity would certainly be disruptive, nevermind the legal problems that come with it.

    You said:

    Hopefully in Love you would stop me and ask on what Biblicial basis do I think this is 1) How God moves and 2) not chaotic.

    If you were punching people in their faces while dancing naked I certainly would. But I wonder if you see a parallel between your stance and the stance of those onlookers in Acts 2 who assumed that the apostles were drunk after they had been filled with the Spirit. Obviously something caused them to act in a manner that others perceived as drunkeness — it just happens that that particular something was in fact the Spirit.

    You said:

    Falling down is not of God. Show me where he overpowers believers and not empowers them. We worship a God of order, not chaos.

    I’m going to have to disagree that falling down is not of God given the examples in Scripture of people falling down before the Lord, e.g. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead…(Rev. 1:17).

    And I absolutely agree that we worship a God of order, hence my qualification that these things should not disrupt the order of service.

    Dennis,

    My pastor has also had to sit people down for disruptive behavior in service.

    B”H

15. Lisa R on September 28, 2007 5:07 am

    Regarding my comment above, the word study was on propitiation. Not sure how a study on propriation would reduce me to tears considering there is no such think

    And the same thing happens many times in corporate and private worship…tears flow from a grateful heart when I am overwhelmed by the majesty and awesomeness of our Great God and His great gift. And that’s coming from someone who is not overly emotional. Now THAT’S the power of the spirit.